Mary Sues.

[samatethecookie]

Why the Culture of Mary Sue Shaming is Bully Culture is an interesting meta about a problem I hadn't considered before.

Admittedly I poked fun at so-called Mary Sues in the past under my previous livejournal account--the most recent one is only a few years ago, and I might dig out that entry because I forget the year I posted that entry never mind, it was four years ago, I checked, so it wasn't that recent but it was still less than five years ago--but I never stopped to consider what it means to the authors of these stories, or how the term's adopted another set of problems that everyone tends to overlook. Or, call myself out on the hypocrisy since uhhh, I WROTE OFCs, TOO.

And since I'm sick of some of my favorite female characters being called Mary Sues to question their worth in canon--such as Tifa from Final Fantasy VII, Terra from Teen Titans, and Kairi from Kingdom Hearts--and I'm aware of how problematic this term is, I'd like to see it die, too. Or at least, see something change.

Here's a snippet from the meta. boosette didn't write this, it was only included within the text to further prove the points raised in this meta:

No, “Mary Sue” has to go. Not only is it being applied too broadly to exclude female characters in general, but it is being used to devalue the writings and fantasies of young women. (Tolkien fan Dawn, at The Midhavens, March 2009)

Comments

[evilwildlex.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with things like the Mary Sue Litmus tests is that they're highly flawed systems of determining if a character is a valid character or not. I've tried them out and....you can still have a character appear in the Sueish range and have that character be enjoyable to interact with.

The author's attitude toward their character and toward constructive criticism that wasn't targeted at hurting the writer's feelings tends to be more telling than the amount of Super Special Awesome points the character has.

I tend to see a true Mary Sue and their writer as comparable to a really obnoxious little child that runs around the room screaming "LOOK AT MEEEE! LOOK AT MEEEE!" and the writer as the parent who encourages this behaviour instead of inhibiting it - including making sure to remind you at every opportunity of how very gifted and special their child is. I won't go out of my way to say and do hurtful things toward them, but they aren't welcome at my house (or RPG, as the analogy works).

[samatethecookie.livejournal.com]

Hah. I ran my original characters through those tests before, and a lot of them were either declared outright boring or OMG SUES/STUS YOU SHOULD STOP WRITING THEM NOW. XD I stopped using those litmus tests, because with a lot of those tests, either your character's too awesome or they're not awesome enough, and to be honest that gets a little frustrating to deal with. (A lot of litmus tests make me laugh, though, because they point out a lot of things that make no sense in fanfiction. "What do you mean Goku has a sister?!")

I tend to see a true Mary Sue and their writer as comparable to a really obnoxious little child that runs around the room screaming "LOOK AT MEEEE! LOOK AT MEEEE!" and the writer as the parent who encourages this behaviour instead of inhibiting it - including making sure to remind you at every opportunity of how very gifted and special their child is.

I don't think I'd have a problem with Sue/Stu characters who are extremely overconfident and basically act like -- excuse me for lack of a better word, but this was the first one to pop into my mid -- attention whores, is the fact that they never have their behavior punished in some way.

Example: Black Star from Soul Eater. If you've never watched it, he's basically the type of character who runs around, exclaiming that he's going to surpass God with his greatness, challenges people to fights just so he can show off, and he gets really frustrated when he can't win against somebody. But! Again, he suffers from the consequences of these actions. He's forced to learn from his mistakes. He can still be overconfident and succeed because of it, but when he fails, he fails hard and he has to sit in his failure for awhile.

Overconfident characters who want attention? They're fine, so long as the players are okay with letting their characters run into an obstacle at least once in awhile. It doesn't help if the player goes out of his or her way to make sure nothing bad ever happens to their characters, that their characters almost always have to win or have the final say-so in a conversation or fight.

[evilwildlex.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's fine if the character's overconfidence becomes a flaw. I'm talking about the characters who just.........never seem to fuck up. All bad things that happen to them are never their fault. And the writers don't accept constructive criticism of them.

...but your icon is hilariously appropriate for this discussion, I must say. :D

[samatethecookie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hate that. For anyone who ever writes a characters. They're allowed to fail once in awhile!

Nobody's got a bigger ego than Gaston! 8D